Internet Child Grooming!!!!!

[Rock DJ]

what measures do ya think should be taken to stop perverts grooming kids in chat rooms and other forms of real time chat.

[mac_p300]

Unfortunately the nature of the Internet makes it virtually impossible to prevent paedophiles going into chat rooms etc. The only real way to tackle it is by educating the kids. We tell our kids "don't talk to strangers" in the street, the same should apply to the Internet. I must admit this worries me quite a bit as I have a 14 year old daughter who uses the Internet a lot.

[Jill]

Supervision is the only effective answer. My kids are constantly supervised by me when using the internet. Fortunately, they see it as a privilidge to be able to use mum's computer instead of their own (mine has the modem ;)). They also learn to use it effectively so that they can find what they want quickly and simply. Both are now more computer literate than their peers, supervision works here :)

[compunightmare]

I agree totally with what Jill says above ... Supervision is the key to “protecting” kids from those on the internet who seek to harm or otherwise abuse kids in some way. We thankfully don't hear a lot about this particular activity on the internet, but when we do, the first question that always comes to mind for me is where the hell were the parents when their child was engaged in discussions on the net ?. It is not an easy option to blame the parents - it is quite simply the only option !. We see distraught parents on TV or in the newspapers after something “bad” has happened to “their little baby”, and in certain instances they cannot be entirely to blame for whatever incident has taken place, but, as far as internet access is concerned they are to blame every single time, and have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing what their son or daughter was (quite possibly unknowingly) getting themselves involved with.

Craig.

[pudds]

Agree totally. Read an exellent article in PCW a while back which said that no parent would let there child wander about alone in a big city so why do they do it with the internet (the largest city of the all)?
P.S.
Is it just me who thinks it's really bad taste for politicians to try and grab your vote by introducing the subject of paedophiles. WTF didn't they do something about it earlier?

P.P.S.
How big of a problem are paedophiles? All we get is what the media tell us, anyone know the stats on the number of convicted paedophiles?

[Jill]

I haven't got a clue what the figures are for convicted paedophiles. It is a difficult issue though because the freedom of the internet is also important, although with these people I think an exception should be made.

Recently I had something of a dilemma. My son arrived home from school with a letter asking me to give permission for him to access the internet at school for reasearch, e-mail etc. His school is good discipline-wise but I felt I should phone school and ask what steps they were taking to protect the kids from the likes of chat rooms, undesirable sites etc. I also asked about supervision. School do not supervise everything the kids do, but have taken steps to control the sites available through their method of access. I can't say I was 100 per cent happy with everything, but it has to be balanced with the benefits to be gained from increasing the child's knowledge both academically and keeping abreast of modern technology. There are strict rules on what the children can and cannot do. Any child caught abusing the rules has privilidges removed immediately. This is the first time I've had to "cross my fingers" and deputise responsibility in this way. Hope I did the right thing.

[onomatopoeia]

>How big of a problem are paedophiles?

From newsnight last August. For every one Sarah Payne or Damelola Taylor (child killed by strangers), there are approx 10-12 killed by their parents or members of their families. I understand the same sort of ratio applies to abuse. I think the amount of attention the internet gets (which is responsible for a small portion of the <10% who are victims of strangers) is hugely disproportionate to the risk involved.

People fear what they don't understand. Many who did not grow up with computers do not understand them or the internet and fear it. The media and some politicians play on these fears and blow them up out of all proportion. Those seeking to protect children should focus their attention closer to the home.

[pudds]

I agree , the large majority of child abuse comes from within the home and yet so much attention is put on the internet and paedophiles who operate in networks across the country. This should be tackled but the major issues seems to be pushed aside.
I think people are more comfortable dealing with this 'unknown evil which is terrorising our children' than with abuse in the family which is perhaps a bit to close to home.

[misterwolf]

It may well be the case that more abuse occurs via family members or friends than total strangers, but people just do not want to face the fact that it could happen to their child. It is for easier for someone to believe the worst of a stranger than of someone they know, and speaking as an overprotective mother (though mine are too young for the internet yet), anything that could possibly be in the slightest way hazardous to our children tends to set alarm bells ringing, no matter wether the risk is small or huge.

[squidgy]

Here's my opinion. Some good points have been raised here, and yes, I agree that the threat of chat rooms has been blown out of proportion. However, I do agree that supervision is better, even essential. Kids shouldn't talk to strangers. At least not until they're older, anyway.

Mind you, I'm inclined to think that maybe this is asking the impossible of parents. What if they have two or three children? Parents do need to sleep now and then.

[compunightmare]

I disagree squidgy. If “you” as a parent (I don't mean you) cannot adequately supervise your child/children on the internet, then A) you shouldn't have internet access in your home, and B) I would question “your” suitability to be a parent in the first place. I have 2 boys, one aged 4 and the other 10. Whenever my 10 year old uses the internet at home, which is set up just off the main living room, I do not have to watch him like a hawk and make him aware of the fact that I'm watching him ... I can see the screen from where either myself or mum is sat in the living room and keep an eye on him this way, or alternatively I can take a genuine interest in what he is searching for/looking at on the net and again “watch him” this way. As for chat rooms inparticular - they are banned in this house.

One other thing to consider within the context of this discussion ... How are some of these perverts caught ?. Apparently a PC keeps a record of sites visited, and even if you think that you've wiped that record there are companies that specialise in retrieving such data. But ... and my point is ... I for example haven't got a PC and no record exists of the sites I visit on the net. The type of internet access I use is set to overtake PC access by 2005, so what gives ?. Pervs will be able to carry on with their activities unless non-PC access systems change.

Craig

[Rock DJ]

actually the ISP keeps a recod of every site ya visit or try to visit. it is stored on server. although they wont admit this it is very well true.

data is often stored on proxies amongst other things.

so providing an IP addy is found they can't get away with it.

[onomatopoeia]

Using an anonymous proxy is a good way to get all your packets logged against your IP address.

[compunightmare]

John ... I don't think that an ISP would be able to keep a record of every single click of the mouse we make, and reckon you're wrong ... unless anyone knows different (of course :) ). The numbers of sites visited per hour, day, week, month, year, multiplied by the numbers of internet users would be astronomical mate.

No John, the system that I use, as opposed to PC access, does not allow for anyone to knock on my door, take the system away and then find out which sites I've visited. It just doesn't keep such a record John.

Craig

[onomatopoeia]

Craig, if they wished an ISP could record every packet you send and recieve. For a large ISP like Demon (making an educated guess at the number of ports they have) if every dialup port was being used all the time by people with ISDN who are continually sending and recieving at full capacity then I estimate they would need to store around 20TB data / day. The real figure is likely to be well under 5TB This much data could be stored on tape . I'm not saying the ISPs do this, they probably don't.

So anyone seeking the information could knock on the ISPs door rather than troubling you.

edit - maths!

[big tart]

I think the issue of internet access in schools should be addressed by the parents a lot more.

My 14 year old friend boasts to me how even the schools internet protection system is easily by-passed and full access to the internet is obtained, undetected.
One of the main attractions to the kids is that they are talking to strangers and getting to know them even if lies are being sent back and forth. I dont know the best way to tackle this but clearly something should be done.

[squidgy]

Going back to compunightmare's point, suggesting that certain people should not have internet access in the home, personally I don't think it's such a black and white distinction.

Why? Well, to my way of thinking, if you have a PC with an internal modem, and you have a phone line, then, by definition, you "have" internet access. Ok, you might not have installed the modem driver software and set up any dial-ups, but it can still be done in the space of a few minutes if anyone in your family wanted to.

There are probably millions of people who have PC's in their homes that are quite capable of being used to access the internet but which are never used for this purpose. Most of these people, I guess, do have phone lines as well!

So what are you suggesting? That we should dump the computers? Or that we should disconnect the phone line? It has to be one or the other!

And as for parents supervision, not all families have the luxury of two parents. Or kids who can be relied upon to sleep at the same time as the one parent. Of course, I'm thinking of my sister here.

Don't get me wrong, though, I'm NOT advocating tighter control of the internet. I'm merely suggesting that kids ought to be taught not to speak to strangers, and watch what they say that might identify themselves to anyone. After all, it's not unthinkable that you might get exactly the same problems with the phone chat lines that are advertised on late night TV. How far do you go to monitor your kids' use of the phone, never mind the internet?

[Jill]

Big Tart's post give me cause for concern having just signed the form to let my 13 year old have access to school's internet facility. He chatters a lot at home, so I think I'll know if he's using it inappropriately, at least I hope I'll know.

Although some kids might feel they can gain access to the internet without a parent's knowledge, mine certainly can't ;) My computer is in my bedroom and they wouldn't dare log on coz the phone would "ding" :lol If they chose to do it anyway, they'd not manage to log on because my dial up usually takes several goes to verify and by that time I've got my hand on a collar! :lol

I have to take issue with the luxury of two parents thing. Not sure if I'd call two parents a luxury necessarily, perhaps it's the ideal situation for some, but one good parent can be as good as, or better, than two that may not always see eye to eye on everything. I've been a lone parent for 10 years and can honestly say I know my kids very well. They have one set of rules that are minimal but adhered to strictly. As for children not sleeping at the same time as the parents, mine do. I'm up later than they are, but when they wake up so do I. Goes with the territory.

Children speaking with strangers is always a problem. Defining a stranger is one of the hardest things to do. Parents don't want to scare them witless, but they must be aware of potential dangers. My daugher is mad on sweets :( so we've role played situations where she's offered sweets and she's had to practice saying no in front of me. She's then praised and I explain why it's necessary to say no. It's done almost as a game of cat and mouse ... they know I'm trying to catch them out. My son is the same but with small animals, he'd do almost anything to play with a puppy, so his role play is a bit more subtle as he's older and is based around his love of animals. They're also taught to scream, loudly! And both do karate so are able to defend themselves should the need ever arise (hopefully not!).

As for using the phone, they have to ask (always) but they know I'll say yes. Doesn't give them the right to use it without asking though as they know. And I'm about when they're using it anyway so I can hear what they're saying. I'm sure that will change a bit soon as my son is growing up and will probably be chattering with girlfriends etc., but that's normal. The phone bill is itemised so the slightest sniff of misuse of the phone and they'll lose the opportunity.

I explain to my kids why I guide them in the right direction, so they're aware and on their guard. But tempered with this they have to be allowed to make the mistakes that children do, without making whoppers that will place them in danger. It's a fine line, but that's all part of parenting I think. Never easy, but very rewarding ;)

[Furby]

Hi Jill :) My son has internet access in school, and because the computers are networked, beleive me he can't get away with anything :) He once decided to change the background because he didn't like the boring one on the computer at school and he was caught and served a detention for it.

As far as surfing *wrong* sites, well both the junior school where I voluntarily teach children about computers, and my sons secondary school have a defined access to the internet, using a specifically designed access for schools, and the connection does not allow *general surfing* (In other words, they don't use general isps like the homeuser does) My olkdest was constantly coming home complaining that shool computers/access is boring because he couldn't do anything like he does on the one at home...

At the junior school they have their own teaching site they have access to and have to log on too, (we cannot access it at home,) and surfing only takes place within that networked site so there are no dangers. :)

If you are concerned about the access in your sons school why not go along and see for yourself? I know the school our son goes too is very tight on such things. Have a word with his teacher about your concerns over the phone if you can't manage to get in, I am sure they will be more than happy to answer any of your questions.

Please don't think that I am doubting you *big tart* as I don't know the set up for all schools, but if your freind is boasting to you how the security of access can be easily accessed, the problem is not going to get solved. Someone responsible needs to ring the school and let them know *how easy* it is for their pupils to bypass it - I I am sure many other parents would be grateful to know that these issues are being tackled ;)

[Furby]

Just reading back to Craigs point of TVI access overtaking PC internet access by 2005, and whith no record, potential perverts can get unrecorded access.

I have thought about this, and the main danger is the chatrooms, and like you have mentioned Craig, chatrooms are out of your limit, and I would think that if this type of access was to take over PC, I think the restriction fields would keep the same. TVI access has restricted fields in the first place and they would be a fool to open up the bandwidth feilds on it more :eek:

I am not saying there wouldn't be other ways for perverts to get their kicks through TVI, but with no chat rooms, it would certainly provide only a limited choice for them, thank goodness :)

I would imagine too, as it is my understanding, that these sites are stored on *other* private servers, and I would think most of these to be inaccessible through TVI.

I am not condeming TVI Craig, it has its benefits if it does not provide the potential pervert with the tools he needs and if it is to overtake PC access by 2005 all the better, although I feel that this will only be statistically, as with digital TV which everyone will have to have by 2005 automatically comes internet access, so most of the population will have TVI but they may not necessarily use it?

I know for personal preference, I prefer the PC access mainly because a PC offers much more adaptability in other ways - it can be used for many, many things, not just access :) If a PC could ONLY be used for access on the other hand, as I would have TVI by 2005, I would feel no need for purchasing a PC and certainly browse through the TV :)

[Adrian]

It has been shown that no matter what advice and training a parent can give to a child, if it comes to the "real" situation, most kids crumble and go along with it. Any person who can masquerade as some sort of authority figure has irresistible powers over children and adults alike. Anyone who watched "The Human Zoo" last night will know what I mean.

Media coverage is a problem, too. Any time something terrible happens concerning a child, it receives extensive coverage. This gives us the impression that the problem is rife and the whole world is under threat from it.

The reality is that it is very unlikely to happen to your children, and so it is perhaps wise to bear this in mind, keeping the problem in perspective.

Adrian

[Jill]

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the info. I did phone school and chat with the IT guy about how their access works before signing my son's form, but I think you made an excellent suggestion by saying I could ask to see it in action. Then I could satisfy myself that access is appropriate. Will do this when the schools go back :)

As for TVI, I disagree with Craig that it's going to be the more popular form of access in the future. To be honest, there's no substitute for a pc really and with TVI and I can't see many families giving up watching their favourite TV programmes because someone wants to use the internet. To do this effectively, they would need to have two tellies and ditigal tvs are expensive. Not everyone could afford to have two and they would be better off having a pc instead to fully access the internet. That's just my opinion of course ;)

Kind regards,

[big tart]

I am sure most schools put aside a part of their budget which is large enough to pay for not only the computers and hardware but to get the proper software and security needed.

Unfortunatley this may not be the case for those schools with less money. Therefore even if kids are able to breach the security then the only thing that could be done on the schools budget is to close off the internet to pupils completely.

I doubt it is something to be seriously concerned with as anything that shouldn't be going on will eventually be picked up by teachers and supervisors...

Matt

[Jill]

Schools do seem to differ one from another. From the little I know about their systems I gather they have some form of internal network as well as internet access.

Some will have heard of my "difficult" eldest son who left home some time ago now. When he was at school a few years ago, there was a girl in his class that he didn't get on with. She teased him, he got fed up with it. One day he went to the school computer room and found a disk lying on the desk next to one computer. He put it in and found the draft copies of children's school reports that had not yet been printed. His own class reports were all visible to him. Temptation got the better of him so he printed off the reports for his class then started on the process of distributing them. Any children he didn't like had their reports shown to other kids, particulary the report of the young lady he didn't get on with who ended up being the last to know what had been said about her.

Of course my son was fixed-term excluded which was entirely appropriate for his actions. I did ask many times (without my son knowing) why school had left the disk out for children to access which seemed highly inappropriate to me! Never did get an answer to that one :(

My children do not go to that school any more and I feel confident that the school they now attend would not be so careless as to leave stuff around that kids should not have access to :)

[Opium]

I don't think that TVI will be more popular than pc internet access by 2005, for the same reason that Adams has stated. People won't give up watching their favourite programs so that someone else can surf the net.

Especially when you can now watch tv on your pc. It would make more sense to keep the tvi set and a pc with tv card installed.

[Synergy Blades]

There's always a pupil that can break security in a school! Our new IT facilities are supposed to be a "pioneering scheme" in the north west; my friend got into the system, got access to teacher information (names, photographs etc), printed it out...he was only caught after a teacher walked in on him. It was kind of pointless in my opinion, but highlights potential security flaws.